An Interview With Pierre Lacocque
Questions By Niles Frantz
(Freelance Journalist, Host Of WBEZ Weekly Blues Radio Show "Coming Home")

Part I: Childhood and Adolescence [1952-1970]
Part II: The College Years: Montreal, Canada [1970 - 1976]
Part III: Back to Chicago [1976-Early 1990's]
Part IV: The Birth of Mississippi Heat [1996-1999]


Part I: Childhood and Adolescence [1952-1970]

Q. First I want to talk a little bit about your personal history to get some basic facts. Tell me where and when you were born.
A. I was born October 13, 1952 in Jerusalem, Israel. We are a Christian family and my father is anOld Testament Scholar. We lived in Israel a few times. The first time was between 1951 and 1953. My dad went to the Hebrew University of Jerusalem as a Biblical researcher. We later returned to Jerusalem for one year in 1963. I was then eleven years old. We left Israel in 1953. After Jerusalem we lived two years in Ludwigshafen-Am-Rhine, Germany. My father had to do his military service as an Army Chaplain. After Germany we moved to Alsace, France. My dad was a Protestant minister. He had received a job to serve in a beautiful mountain village called Neuviller. It was situated in Alsace and was about thirty minutes from Strasbourg. While we live happily there, my dad was finishing his doctorate in Theology at the University of Strasbourg. We lived in Neuviller from 1955 to 1957. From France we moved to Brussels, Belgium. By then my dad, though still a minister, decided to lean towards the academia and began teaching Old Testament at the Faculte de Theologie Protestante de Belgique. Today he's world famous in his field. Though now retired, he still travels the world to lecture. My mother goes with him wherever she is able to. In spite of being of Belgian descent where all the Lacocques as well as the Tournays (my mother's side) came from that country for numerous generations, I didn't begin to live there until I was 5 or 6 years old.

Q. That's great. Do you have any brothers or sisters?
A. Yes, I have an older brother, Michel. He is 19 months older than I, and is heavily involved in Mississippi Heat. His birth date is March 12, 1951, and he is born in Ransart, Belgium. Then I have a sister Elisabeth who was born in Strasbourg, France, in 1956... July 10, 1956. She's quite artistically inclined, and has done four of our CD covers. We are a close family.

Q. Are there any other musicians in your family?
A. My mother used to play the piano, church and classical music basically. My sister eventually learned to play the piano as well but not professionally or anything like that, just as a hobby. My children and especially Elisabeth's children are quite musical though. Michel's son Jeremy also plays bass. My father tells me that a maternal uncle of his played the harmonica.

A. His name was Henry Lurkin. And on my maternal grandmother's side, the Van der Lindens, one of my mom's uncle, Bernard, also played it. My mother recalls hearing him play in her parents' backyard. They had passed away by the time I was born.

Q. What would they play on the harmonica?
A. French Folk songs. Given the fact that my family on both sides were quite religious -- my paternal grandfather Jean Lacocque was also a minister; and my mother's side of the family helped build their town church in Ransart, Belgium -- I have to assume they also played church tunes. You know, this was the time when the harmonica began to be pretty popular. It tended to be played with double reeds which when played gave an accordion-like sound. So Polkas, folk and popular tunes of the time were hummed in my parents' homes. But I don't know how advanced my great uncles were on the harmonica. They never made a career out of it as I did, however.

Q. Was there music in your life? Did you listen to records or radio as a family or individual?
A. Well... my family was VERY intellectual. I say "very" because my father had only passion for Philosophy and intense Theological scholarship. So anything to do with nonintellectual activities like music or sports was not well received. In my case, my love for soccer and music [I loved listening to Ray Charles, Otis Redding, Aretha Franklin, Little Richards...] were considered petty and frivolous. However my father did like Gospel and Jazz. I remember times when he was particularly happy listening to Sidney Bechet, Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzerald. So I do have special memories around music as occasional bursts of joy in the family. Reading and studying the Latin and Greek classics, Dostoevsky, Kafka, Camus, Sartre, Old Testament books and any of the Judeo-Christian philosophers like Martin Buber and Gabriel Marcel was greatly encouraged at home. So was watching heavy existential films by Ingmar Bergman, for instance.

Indeed, the idea of relaxing and having fun as I was naturally inclined to do, did not fit well with the Protestant ethics instilled in my parents... especially on my dad's side. Music was very important to me, and I enjoyed it. I had to find creative ways to listen on my own time. I would go to my bedroom, shut the door and put the radio on softly so as not to alert my dad. As far back as I can remember, my father was writing books, sermons, articles... you name it. I don't ever recall seeing him without a note pad and pen, reading, taking notes, writing. He needed absolute quietness. He was one of those intense scholars... like many artists ... who needed complete peace to concentrate and create. So hobbies like listening to soccer games on the radio and/or music enjoyment had to be done subtly and un-intrusively. However, it is to my father that I give credit to introducing me to the harmonica.

When we lived in France - I must have been 3 or 4 years old - my father bought me a harmonica. A plastic, green harmonica. Coincidentally, its shape looks exactly like those Hohner Golden Melody harmonicas I play today. Except that instead of being green, the harmonicas I now play are red-colored. When I began playing Blues at seventeen years old I used Hohner Marine Bands. They have a different size or look to the one my dad first gave me. Later on, I shifted to Hohner Golden Melodies, which have more of a round look to them and look like the one my father bought me. Funny, I have been thinking about that lately. So when I was introduced to the harmonica we were living in Neuviller, France. I remember crying when I heard the sounds that came out of that toy!

Q. Explain this to me a little more. The sound of the instrument was bringing tears to you.
A. Yes. I remember blowing in it. I remember the sounds, the sounds coming out from this instrument. It hit me so deeply that I began crying. It echoed what was inside of me. So I knew very early that the harmonica was THE instrument for me. Harmonica songs I heard in my childhood, like the Beatles, grabbed me somewhat. Yet not enough for me to drop everything and say: "This is it". That came much later when I came to live in Chicago in 1969. In my youth it was songs by Ray Charles, Aretha Franklin and Otis Redding that spoke to me the most.

Q. Soul singers.
A. Very interested in that.

Q. So how old were you when you enjoyed this music?
A. I would say early teens. We lived in Brussels in a suburb called Anderlecht. We lived there from about 1958 to 1968... I have great memories of Anderlecht. I was passionate about professional soccer, and there is a well-known team in that town with that name. To this day, I receive in Chicago a weekly magazine from my country giving me fresh news from that club, and the ongoing Belgian soccer competition. But to return to my history with the harmonica, my father who traveled a lot as a Biblical scholar, came back one year from India with a couple of gifts for me: A harmonica - a Hohner Marine Band - and a "Sergeant Pepper Band" Beatles album. Another gift was a flat knife made in India

... a beautiful knife that you had to unfold to open. I was quite pleased with that. That was around 1964. I was about twelve years old at the time, and I had never tried to play any tunes on the harmonica 'till then.

In spite of that new harp which fascinated me, I didn't hear anything on record or radio that inspired me to play it. That came later, when we moved to Chicago. Before 1969, I had no idea Blues music existed.

Q. Right.
A. Sure there were tunes by the Beatles and the Rolling Stones with harmonica playing on it. During my pre-Chicago years I loved the harmonica but didn't know deep blue notes could be played on them. These are the harp sounds that later transformed my life.

Q. So when you played the harmonica as an adolescent, what did you play?
A. I tried simple melodies. Nothing advanced. I love melodies on the harmonica, I really do. I tried to play some of the stuff the Beatles did, not too well though. I still hadn't gotten that "bug" to play with mastery. Considering the profound affection I have for the harmonica, I am puzzled that I didn't play it sooner than at seventeen years old because my love for it was always deep.

Q. So you moved to this country when?
A. In the summer of 1969. After Belgium we returned one year to Israel from 1963 to 1964. My father had received another scholarship to study in Jerusalem. We returned to Brussels in 1964. Shortly after that dad received an offer to teach for a year at the Chicago Theological Seminary. He began traveling back and forth from Brussels to Chicago until they made him an offer to teach there for a full year. My brother Michel and I were attached to our school, so for that one year we stayed in Brussels in two separate families to be able to stay as students at Ecole Maimonides, our school. Our parents took Elisabeth with them to the Windy City. Ever since Kindergarten and all the way up to High School my brother, sister and I attended Maimonides, a Jewish Orthodox School. We were the only non-Jews ever to study there. My dad's father during World War II hid Jewish families from the Nazis. My mother's family also took care of entire families, hiding them and/or bringing them food and clothing to their hiding places. My maternal uncle, mom's older brother, took an active part in the local Resistance but was taken to a concentration camp and killed. Actually someone snitched on him. As happened in many cities, there was unfortunately a pro-Nazi faction in my mother's town, Ransart. My maternal grandfather, an underground Resistance leader, was also caught by the Germans. He never spoke under torture so no one got killed because of him. He once told me they did medical experiments on him, and injected substances in his lower body... He even was put in front of firing squads a few times to make him talk. Each time he was saved by a priest he knew, who vouched for his innocence. This is a long story to say that my family was deeply influenced by Jewish History, its existential thinking and Theology as well.

It is a fact that some members of my family did consider converting to Judaism at one point or another during their lives. This actually occurred when my dad's father converted to Judaism later in life. After my grandmother died, he married a Jewish lady and moved to Israel, near Tel-Aviv. He died in Israel in 1978. Anyways, my paternal grandfather Jean Lacocque or "Pepere " as we called him, knew the Grand Rabbi in Belgium. Jean wanted us to attend Maimonides School. He convinced the Grand Rabbi that it was the mission of the Jew to welcome non-Jews if they show interest in learning about Judaism. And that is literally how we got to go to that school... From Kindergarten all the way to High School, my siblings and I learned Modern and Biblical Hebrew, Jewish Scholars like Rashi and the Talmud, Latin, Greek, English, Dutch, German ... The school was ultra religious. Some of our friends later became Rabbis. ... My dad was publishing a lot, and as I said above, in 1966 he received an offer to teach in Chicago for a year. That year Michel was about to finish Secondary school and he and I were also attached to our friends at Maimonides. So my parents left with my sister Elisabeth while Michel and I stayed with separate families in Brussels.

They returned to Brussels the following year. While in Brussels in 1968, my dad received a tenured position at the Chicago Theological Seminary. He had taught there on and off since 1966. So in the summer of 1969 the five us moved permanently to Chicago. That year changed my life forever. Once we settled in Chicago my sister Elisabeth and I went to The University of Chicago Lab School, a High School affiliated to that University. Michel went to the University of Chicago, and entered as a freshman in Comparative Literature. The Lab School gave me credit for my studies in Belgium. That meant I could combine my junior and senior year in one academic year.

That Fall 1969, on a Saturday night, I walked from our home on Dorchester and 58th to a nearby concert hall called Ida Noyes. The event was sponsored by The University of Chicago. I had no idea I was to hear Blues music, let alone harp maestro Big Walter Horton! I don't recall going there with anyone but myself. At Ida Noyes I heard a music I never heard before. The music shook me, shook me. There was an older man playing the harmonica the way I had never heard before. The sounds that came out of that instrument sent shivers all through me. I was awe-struck!!! I thought if I had to invent a soulful music for the harmonica I would have invented what I was hearing. The deep sounds, the moaning, the amplified tones... I did recognize one tune that night though: Big Walter played La Cucaracha, Blues style. What a thrill!!! I have enjoyed recorded versions of that tune by Big Walter over the years. He returned to it often during his live shows. When I recorded "Ghost Daddy" on our Handyman CD I was able to insert Big Walter's La Cucaracha melody. ... Listening to the Walter's band that night and his harp was a marvelous experience... a Peak Experience... From one moment to the next I was a new man. I now had discovered a new means of expressing myself; and with my all-time favorite instrument to boot!!! By the next Monday morning, I bought me a harp.

Q. Do you remember where you bought the harmonica?
A. Harper Court in Hyde Park. We were living on Dorchester and 58th, also in Hyde Park. The store was far away by walk. But I didn't care.

Q. What was it that you bought?
A. A Hohner Marine Band upon the store manager's recommendation. I started buying books on how to play Blues. I also began buying albums with harp players on them. Besides Big Walter, I got into Paul Butterfield, Little Walter, Junior Wells, Papa Lightfoot, James Cotton, John Mayall , the two Sonny Boy Williamsons, and Charlie Musselwhite, among others. I followed Muddy Waters' albums closely as he always had great harp players working with him. I spent six, seven, eight hours a day learning how to play it. I kept that practice rhythm for years. My parents never interfered with my hobby. You know, the harmonica can be an obnoxious instrument. It can be as devastating as a badly played violin. When I hear beginning harp players, I think "Oh, my God... how awful..." Yet my parents never discouraged me from my newfound passion.

Q. Did you ever want to play anything else like the piano or guitar?
A. Yes. For me the piano was a noble and sophisticated instrument. I love the piano. I compose on the piano, badly, but I play it to figure out bass lines and melodies. If I hear a song I'm drawn to, I try to figure out the bass and melody on it. I've been using the piano in this way since the mid-1990s. This approach has widened my creative options. Be this as it may, the harmonica has always been THE instrument for me.

Q. All right, so you heard Walter Horton and it changed your life.
A. Yeah.

Q. So when did you next pursue music?
A. I bought records and harp books. I went to hear James Cotton , Carey Bell, Paul Osher and people like that. I sometimes went with Michel and friends to Theresa's where Junior Wells was playing. I would have never gone to Theresa's had it not been for my brother Michel's encouragements. I was too shy to do that on my own. Michel saw something in the new me he appreciated. He could see that my chronic internal struggles and sadness were transcended through my musical inspirations. I think he was moved by that early on. He still is today.

Q. So did Michel take you out to clubs?
A. Yes, literally, literally. We took taxis from Hyde Park to Theresa's, and that is how I got to know Junior Wells. He is the first one that gave me encouragements to continue playing. When we went to Theresa's, Carey Bell and James Cotton would often be there. Billy Branch used to go too, but I didn't meet him until much later. I was a real beginner. Only about 7 months of practice under my belt when I first met Junior. I remember Michel talking to Junior, and he managed to convince him to get me on stage and jam with him. Junior called me up. We played together. As we played he hugged me. I remember his eyes looking at me. I saw approval. Junior seemed touched by my playing. Perhaps I should say by what I was TRYING to play. He gave me his 16-hole chromatic harmonica.
This is a true story. He also gave me a 10-hole Marine Band harp of his. It was in the key of E. Junior could sing in any key. But he liked higher keys for the harp like High F or High G. I said: "look, I cannot take these harps." He replied: "you have to... Keep them" I told Junior that Michel and I would treat him to a special lunch the next day -- this was a Sunday night I believe-- and should he still feel like giving them to me I would then accept them. He insisted I keep the E-harp, and said he would come the next day. I kept that harp for years. We set the time, and gave him the address for the next day. We worked hard at fixing a nice meal for him. I believe we had prepared Chicken Kiev, among other tasty foods. He never showed up. As weird as it may sound, I was not disappointed. I was feeling confident I was on the right track musically. Junior Wells' blessing to continue playing the harp was more than enough for me. I have met Junior again over the years. He always seemed taken by my harp playing.

Q. Who else was playing with Junior at Theresa's?
A. Sammy Lawhorn, Phil Guy, Nate Applewhite, Muddy Waters Jr. ... I don't know where Nate is now. He disappeared from the Chicago scene. I liked him. I especially liked Sammy... a kind and likable man. Years later, I found out from George Baze that he learned guitar from Sammy Lawhorn. Phil Guy was also nice to me but I didn't get to know him well.

Q. How often were you going?
A. Not often.

Q. How often did you get on stage there.
A. I suppose I went a dozen times over the years. I was living in Canada from 1970 to 1976. I went because of Michel's encouragement. He made it happen.

Q. Did you talk to the musicians.
A. Yeah, talked to all of them, especially Junior.

Q. So you were only in Chicago for about a year before you went to college.
A. That is correct.

Q. Is there a story you want to tell about something that happened in October 1992.
A. Yeah. October 24th. We were playing at Shades.

Q. Where is Shades?
A. Shades was in Deerfield, IL, on Milwaukee Avenue. Mississippi Heat was the opening act for him. We had Calvin Jones on bass that night, Billy Flynn, James Wheeler, and Allen Kirk on drums too. We only made $260.00 for the band that night! George Baze was fronting Junior's band. He and I met for the first time that night. George later told me that Junior was impressed with my harp playing and told him "That is the way a harp should sound." Junior came to me after the opener, and said he wanted to buy my amps. "I love your tone... " he said. I played through two amps that night. A big one, and a small one I had the club mike.

Q. What kind of amps?
A. A Fender Super-Reverb, black face. And the smaller one was a Fender Super Champ. So he said "I am buying your amps." I respectfully told Junior that they weren't for sale. He said "That ain't what I am asking you Pierre ... I am asking you how much you want." He went to his sock, and took a huge rolls of hundred dollar bills wrapped with rubber bands. He took the rubber bands off, and started putting money down on my Super Reverb. He went up to one thousand dollars. I told him I had no other amps besides those two. He didn't even listen and replied: "How much do you want?" He got up to fifteen hundred and was willing to go higher. Our conversation went back and forth like this for about 15, 20 minutes. He wouldn't budge. Same with me, though I must say I was flattered. I didn't sell the amplifiers to Junior. Every time he and I met in subsequent years, we hit it off quite well. Once we met at Sarreguemines, France, in 1995. His band and Mississippi Heat were featured at that Blues Festival. We again hit it off as if we had known each other forever. I always appreciated the man. I know his death was difficult to bear for many people. It certainly was for me. I made a point to go to his funeral on January 23rd, 1998, and paid my respects. It was on a Friday.

Q. George Baze was playing at the time for Junior?
A. George Baze was Junior's front man and guitar player. I liked his playing and singing. I asked for his card. The rest is history. He became a regular Mississippi Heat member. Whenever Billy was unavailable to work with us, I hired George. He traveled with me to Canada and Europe many times. This lasted for years until George joined the band in 1997. When he died on October 9th 1998, he had been with us for over a year. We are proud of his contribution on our Handyman CD. He loved that album.


Part II: The College Years: Montreal, Canada [1970 - 1976]

Q. Describe your college years.
A. I graduated from the University of Chicago Laboratory School in 1970. I also wanted to finish my European High School diploma in French (known as "Le Baccalaureat Francais"). There was no such a program in Chicago. My choice was to either go to Los Angeles or Montreal. At that time, these were the only two cities that provided that French Baccalaureat degree. Why did I want that diploma? I don't know. The European High School system is so hard I wanted to prove to myself I was smart enough to get it. I chose Montreal because it is a French-speaking city. A beautiful one I might add. I went to Montreal for one year. From 1970 to 1971. I got my diploma but I decided to stay there and study at McGill University. At that time, McGill was dominantly English speaking. All classes were taught in that language. Over the years, things have changed and classes are now also taught in French. I became interested in Psychology. I loved Montreal. I had close friends, many of whom were musicians.
The good thing for the three of us Lacocque children, my father being a Professor, his Seminary covered our undergraduate tuitions. McGill University's tuition cost was cheap: $900.00 American dollars a year. My family was always poor. While teaching in Belgium, for instance, my father in Belgium wouldn't get paid for weeks at a time. My maternal grandparents would come to our help. They played a central role in our lives. Besides loving us dearly they send food, and whatever else we needed whenever they knew we struggled financially. This was especially so when we lived far away, like in Israel and in France. My Bachelor degree was in Psychology. I received it in 1974. Instead of returning to Chicago where my immediate family now lived, I decided to stay at McGill for two extra years. I wanted to study Counseling Psychology at the graduate level. I received my Master's degree from McGill in 1976, and returned to Chicago soon after that.

Q. So were you doing music at this time?
A. Yes. While in Montreal from 1970 to 1976, I started meeting local Blues musicians. With a few exceptions, they were all influenced by the British scene. So I got to hear renditions of Eric Clapton's and John Mayall's songs, among others. John Mayall was influential on my early harp-playing style. I used to enjoy performing his "Room to Move" live. I remember he used a F# harp while the rest of his band played in C#. Quite unusual key for a harp tune. John Mayall played harp with taste and melody. He still does. Over the years, he plays more background harp than anything else on his tunes. Be it as it may, he wasn't too hard to learn from. To this day I am interested in him because his musical arrangements are creative, and also because he makes every song count. Something I pay attention with my own songs too. And his band members have always been outstanding: Eric Clapton, Peter Green, Coco Montoya or Buddy Whittington, for example. What moves me the most as a musician, and harp player in particular, is tone and melodic phrasings. Little Walter was phenomenal in that department.

In the early 1970's I was playing in Montreal with a band called the Albert Failey Blues Band. To this day I haven't figured out where that name came from. It was not connected to any of the band's names or their relatives. I stayed with them for about a year but quit to join another band called Oven. Weird sounding name. Oven, a quartet, was dynamic and passionate. While I continued to play and study at McGill, I was going through a personal crisis: Being lonely in Montreal away from my family now living in Chicago. I experienced severe anxieties and panic attacks, as well as despair. I was suffering a lot. Playing blues at the time was twofold for me: Incredibly pleasing and incredibly devastating. Very strange, I don't have that anymore. I haven't felt that conflict in years. My wife Vickie and my two children Jonathan and Natalie, and my family's support have a lot to do with giving me solid grounding and roots.

Oven, formerly called Genesis (like the famed band), was a blues-rock band. Our songs were influenced by Eric Clapton and Jimmy Hendricks. The lead guitarist's name was Michael Curtis. One of the best I have ever heard. He still lives in Montreal but stopped playing professionally. He also studied at McGill, and lived in a student resident Hall next to mine. ... We had a band reunion in September of 1992 at the G-Sharp club in Montreal. Gary Sharp, the owner and a very good friend of mine flew me in from Chicago for these two gigs. It brought warm memories. Gary, who had been my manager while in Montreal, a dear friend and an "angel" in my life, died of an unexpected heart attack a few years ago. It was quite a shock to us all. We were about the same ages he and I, though he loved to party hard... I still keep in touch with our bass player Stuart Patterson and guitar player, Michael Curtis. Stuart Patterson still plays professionally in that town and leads his own band. He is a great musician. A consummate pro. One of the nicest man you'll ever meet. As far as Marty is concerned, our Oven drummer, I lost track of his whereabouts. I heard he joined a band in Toronto. These cats were awesome musicians. I stayed with Oven for a couple of years until I couldn't handle my depressions and anxieties.

One factor that helped me cope in Montreal is that I always found people who cared about me. I know that sounds strange. Even when I was in the deepest of sadness and despair, I had people showing caring towards me. One of my McGill professors, Dr. Marv Westwood, invited me to live with him and his wife. He knew I was alone in Montreal, and took a liking for me. In spite of my gigging and turmoil, I happened to be a good student which may have also helped my cause. I lived with them for a year and left the graduate student housing I had stayed at previously. He, another professor of mine, Professor Bill Talley, and my best friend Ron Cadieux made my suffering more bearable ... In spite of these supportive figures or "angels" in my life, I wasn't able to lift myself out of my inner troubles. I was dealing with suicidal feelings. I decided to stop playing music, and to orient myself towards intellectual endeavors.

Up to that point I had kept my feelings to myself, and had not practice the art of expressing myself in words. It was time for me to find ways of explaining to myself what my life's meaning and purpose was all about. I was experiencing a full-fledged identity crisis. I started reading existential books on the meaning of life. Judeo-Christian philosophers and theologians attracted me the most. I started to connect more formerly with the intellectual side of my family, and began reading the same authors they had spoken to me about for years but never showed interest in. It helped me so much. I started taking notes. It was a healing process. What I read answered my questions. The authors spoke of the meaning of anxiety, of life, of vocation... I wrote down things that pertained to me. I started accumulating all sorts of notes and quotes, which I filed under various headings. This was the birth of a new exciting era for me. An era that saved me from sinking to a point of no return. These notes were to help me later at Northwestern University as I referred to them in my papers and class discussions. ... By 1976, the year I graduated with my Masters in Counseling, I stopped playing music to focus on the philosophical side of me. I pursued intensely and passionately, reading, writing, and taking notes that pertained to my situation and confusions. I was hooked on existentialists like Albert Camus, Jean-Paul Sartre, Martin Buber, Paul Tillich, Rollo May, Paul Tournier, Abraham Heschel, Viktor Frankl, and especially Albert Schweitzer. It was very intense. This passion lasted for 14 years, until about 1988 or 1989 when I decided to return full-time to music.


Part III: Back to Chicago [1976-Early 1990's]

Q. Do you think music was opening you up too much?
A. Yes, that is exactly it. It was way too much. I didn't feel like I had a home. It was the beginning of an agonizing ride. My parents eventually realized I had unfinished business with them. They willingly and lovingly worked with me to work through whatever sadness I had about my childhood. Issues such as the numerous countries and cultures we had lived in and encountered away from Belgium, or the fact I had missed being around my maternal grandparents and cousins, having to cope with being a Christian in a Jewish orthodox school, and so forth. My siblings and I have always been foreigners. Different from people around us. I have often thought that this helped me appreciate the plight of some of my African-Americans friends in this country.

Q. Weren't you part of a band that won some kind of awards for Blues?
A. Yes, that is correct. With the band I just spoke about, Oven. We won first place at the Montreal Battle of the Band in 1975. After we won the "Battle", our quartet received great press. We hoped it would open the door for a recording contract. That was the winning price the Battle of the Bands promoters had advertised in the papers prior to the contest. So we won it. The sponsor of the Battle was a lawyer. I think he went bankrupt. Maybe he chickened out. Either way he disappeared and never kept his promise. Regardless of that, I was going to quit Oven anyways as it was clear at the time that I had to attend to my emotional disequilibrium.

Q. Was your repertoire original?
A. I wrote a few original tunes, mainly instrumentals. They were influenced by Little Walter tunes, who to this day remain my mentor and inspiration. Oven rehearsed often, and it showed during our live performances. This is a feat because to this day I have rarely met musicians liking to rehearse. Unless it is for a recording, that is. Even that can turn into an ordeal. As a bandleader I used to bite my tongue on this issue, trying to work around it without resorting to unpleasant confrontations. I no longer hold back. I don't tolerate this anymore. Either you rehearse or you go your way, and we go ours. We've definitely learned the hard way. It is not by chance that one of Mississippi Heat's CD's is entitled Learned The Hard Way. ... The lyrics I wrote to that title track don't address the issue I'm sharing with you now, but the title of the album definitely pertains to Michel and I having learned certain do's and don't as band leader and manager of a professional band.

Q. So, when did you come back to the U.S.?
A. I came back in 1976. Up until then I was in Montreal. I returned to Chicago to be closer to my loved ones.

Q. So you stopped playing?
A. I stopped playing with bands. I played for myself on and off but with little inspiration. I pursued a Ph.D. in Counseling and Clinical Psychology at Northwestern University two years later. That was in 1978. I did it fast. Northwestern University gave me two years credits for my Masters at McGill. I had done the equivalence of three years of supervised counseling work in Montreal, including a full year internship. I had basically finished the research to my doctoral dissertation before I entered the University.

As I said, ever since my Montreal days in the early 1970's, I had folders of psychological notes as a result of my need to find a way out of my existential hell... They existed for private reasons, not for academic ones. These folders and notes turned out to have saved me years of tedious post-graduate work. Not to mention the financial burden these years saved me. I chose as my dissertation title: "Meaning in Life: Healthy and Pathological Aspects". All I had to do to finish my doctorate was to follow advanced Clinical Psychology courses as well as a full-year internship at the Illinois State Psychiatric Institute in Chicago (1977-1978). After graduation in 1978 I became a psychotherapist and pursued intellectual activities. Though I always enjoyed working with clients and patients, I also discovered a passion for writing and publishing professional papers. For fourteen years, I published articles, book reviews, even a book with my dad on topics close to my heart; namely issues pertaining to how the experience of a meaning in life correlates with being mentally healthy. Obviously, the two do not go hand in hand as Hitler, Stalin, the KKK and so many evil persons do have a purpose and passion in life. That brought me an exciting challenge to explain and demonstrate such point as well as to propose a revised mental heath theory which includes specific ethics at its core ...

Q. So after fourteen years, what drew you back into playing music again?
A. Well, this intellectual momentum that I had led me to feel I was becoming old too fast. You see, in being a psychologist, the whole idea is to be a wise man. The goal is basically similar to a Shaman, Priest, Rabbi or Minister: To understand, contain and manage the mystery and meaning of emotions, and to help people find a path out of their labyrinth. But during these fourteen years I began to feel like I distanced myself too much from my emotional core, my spontaneous side. The side that makes me feel happy to be alive.

By 1988, 1989 I hit bottom again. This time it was from over accentuating my intellectual side at the expense of the vibrant, spontaneous child-like side. You can call it a mid-life crisis. Whatever it was, it hit me again like a ton of bricks. Despair took over again. I was about 37 or 38 years old. I was happily married -- I had met Vickie in 1978, and we married in 1980. But I felt an emptiness in my life. As addictive as my intellectual passions were, I felt I didn't have as much time as I wished to be close to my two chidden, Jonathan and Natalie, at the time seven and four respectively. And Vickie as well. For fourteen years my excitement was to read, study, write and publish.

Q. Were you following your dad?
A. On hindsight it's an undeniable fact. We have much in common.

Q. What then?
A. Well, my love for my kids and wife helped me bear this new crisis. I realized I was not as part of the family as much as I could have. On hindsight, my obsession with writing and publishing was like being involved with a mistress, as weird as it sounds. So, I think these realizations got me to change. This was not a mere intellectual decision. I knew I had to find a healthier equilibrium in life. My passion for harp playing came back. From one day to the next, the urge to return to Blues music overtook me. From feeling lost and confused, I finally found my calling. Ever since I got back as a full-time musician, everything has fallen into place for me. As deeply immersed as I am in playing, I have tamed my urges to relentlessly create at the expense of my family. I guess I've matured. Everyone in the family is now comfortable with my pace.

Q. What did you physically do?
A. I think I knew in my heart of hearts that if I continued my intellectual pursuits I wouldn't enjoy the gold I had in my life. My wife Vickie was feeling increasingly abandoned by my intellectual passion. More than I had ever realized. Something had to be done. I began longing for the harp. And that is what I did.

Q. So you started playing.
A. Yes.

Q. In the house and clubs again?
A. Both. When I took the harp seriously again, I had lost complete touch with the Blues scene. On rare occasions I had gone to Wise Fools Pub or Kingston Mines to see Big Walter or James Cotton play but I lost track of new recordings, especially the newer harp maestros like William Clarke, Rod Piazza, Billy Branch, Sugar Blue, Gary Primich, Mark Hummel, and so forth. I had never heard of Kim Wilson, and after Little Walter, he is one of the best harp player alive today, or ever for that matter.

My first official gig in Chicago was at my church in Oak Park, Illinois. As I said earlier, we are a Christian family. So one Sunday a new couple came to our church. They had recently moved to Oak Park. The man is Jewish and his wife is Christian. They just had a baby boy and came out to check our church. The man was not a practicing Jew. So I started talking to him, and welcomed him to our church. I asked what brought him in. He said it was his wife Amy. I asked him "What do you do?" He said he was a musician, a Jazz singer. I said "It's nice to meet a musician... the music I love is Blues." His eyes lit and said, "Let me tell you the truth, I am a Blues singer". His name was Tad Robinson. Tad was one of the first musician, and harp player, I connected with in Chicago since my return in 1976. Our families became friends, and we started socializing. He invited me to some of his gigs, and let me sit in. I started thinking of ways to get gigs. And that is how the first Blues Benefit at my Oak Park church [Pilgrim Church] came into being. We started a yearly Blues Benefit event for Pilgrim. An event we kept for years. It was a huge success financially... Tad left Chicago a few years ago. He now lives in Indiana, near Amy's family.

Q. Okay so you meet Tad Robinson in your church.
A. I am thrilled. I am practicing everyday and now I am back.

Q. Did he take you to clubs?
A. Yeah. He was playing with the Mojo Kings at the time. He had just left Big Shoulders and had recorded a few tracks on their last CD. The Mojo Kings had Mark Brombach on piano, Steve Freund on guitar, Harlan Terson on bass and John Hiller on Drums.

Q. So then what happened.
A. Well, I started meeting musicians through Tad. I was trying to re-hook with the Blues harmonica world. Someone mentioned the name of this guitar player, Joe Zaklan. I don't know how I got a hold of him. Joe also plays harmonica. I called him to see if he knew of a band that could use a harp player. He said, "I'm playing with friends every Sunday at a place called No Exit. Why don't you join us. We play between 4PM and 7 PM." I started going. Bass player and singer Sonny Wimberly, formerly with Muddy Waters, and Carl Schneider on piano -- he could play in any key -- were the better known musicians at these informal gigs. It was led by drummer Michael Lynn. I played at No Exit every Sundays, between November 1990 to July 1991. That is how I re-hooked with the Chicago Blues scene. Sonny would come regularly. We hit it off right away. He was appreciative of me and my playing, and would pay me out of his pocket. He took me under his wings. Through these gigs I also met Jon McDonald who eventually was to become Mississippi Heat first guitar player.

Q. So you didn't get to know Sonny very long.
A. No. He died August 24th, 1991.

Q. It is like he was there to help you get back.
A. Amazing, I am telling you. I will never forget his kindness towards me. We had recording plans and we were rehearsing.

Q. That is exciting, really exciting. All right. So you are gigging around. You are connecting with people like Steve Freund. Really well known names.
A. Right.

Q. What is US Blues?
A. It was a club Sonny and I often played at. It was located in a basement. It had a small surface area, including its bandstand.

Q. Where is No Exit?
A. North of Chicago. Near Loyola University. Northeast side of Chicago.

Q. US Blues?
A. US Blues has folded now. Old Town on Wells Street, I believe. We did lots of weekends there… After Sonny died, I started calling around to connect with Blues bands in the Chicago area. I found an Illinois Entertainer magazine with printed names and phone numbers of such bands. They had a special edition on local bands. From that list I called Willie Kent to ask if he needed a harp player. At that time I didn't know any of the people I called. Including Willie. I eventually got a hold of Tre, of the Blue Lights band. I told him I had been in Canada for a long time, and was looking for a Chicago-based band. He invited me to sit in with him. He loved my playing, and asked me to come back. So I stayed with Tre for awhile. In the meantime I got to know his drummer Cleotis Cole, who also played for Doug McDonald and the Blue Mirror Band. Cleo is a great guy. He too liked my playing. He talked to Doug about me. As I got to know Doug and his band, I felt they were more compatible musically with what I wanted. So I joined his band. I stayed with Doug from July 1991 to January 1992. We had great times together. His guitar playing is awesome. One of the top player in Chicago... A great singer and entertainer. He played Albert King tunes, and songs in minor keys which I loved. I enjoyed his enthusiasm. Eventually we had creative differences because I was starting to build my own repertoire of songs. So by the end of that year we decided to go in our own direction. To this day we are good friends. Sometimes I invite Doug play to play with Mississippi Heat.

Part IV: The Birth of Mississippi Heat [1996-1999]

Q. So how often do these bands play, like once a week or weekend, full-time?
A. Moderate pace. We played at the Checkerboards every Thursdays and Doug McDonald would have weekend gigs every two weeks or so. So it was not overwhelming. At the Checkerboards on Thursdays, Junior Wells would come and sit in with us. I got to get reacquainted with Junior. I also met other musicians like Little Smokey Smothers and Ray Allison - at that time working with Buddy Guy - whom I had never met before.

Q. So you're playing in black clubs and black neighborhoods.
A. Yes very much so. In the suburbs, we used to play at places like Long John's, The Red Room, and At the Tracks were whites folks were in the audience.

Q. So you're still doing this.
A. At that time I worked full-time as a Psychologist. I was in charge of Harper College's mental health services in Palatine, Illinois. Soon after I left Doug and began Mississippi Heat, I left Harper to work part-time. Social workers friends of mine hired me to work for their psychotherapy practice. That was in 1993. This part-time job gives me freedom to play music full-time. Without it my family couldn't live well. It also liberates me from feeling guilty about doing what I love to do, because it brings dependable income home.

Q. And you are playing 4, 5, 6 times a month.
A. Right, Yeah. ... With Doug's band I hit a lull. So after I left, Jon McDonald [no relations to Doug even if Jon jokingly called him "my distant relative"], one of the best cultured Blues guitar player I know, and whom I had befriended at No Exit, invited me to one of his gigs.

Q. So we are talking about how Mississippi Heat actually started coming together.
A. Jon McDonald knew I was looking for work. On December 28, 1991 I worked with him at Cafe Lura, in Chicago. This was the night where I first met Robert Covington. He was on drums that day. I think Harlan Terson was on bass. I remember Robert double-parking in front of the club with his Cadillac, unloading his drums. I took an immediate liking to him. And it was mutual. We played together, and the chemistry was so nice that my brother Michel, who was in the audience listening to us, thought about forming a new band. I loved the thought of working with Jon because my musical interest were definitely in Delta-based Chicago Blues. So we called Robert and Jon to discuss this idea of a new band. Michel volunteered to serve as our manager. Since Bob Stroger and Robert were playing regularly, we called Bob and also asked him to join. On that late December 1991 evening the Mississippi Heat concept was born!!! Our first gig as a new unit was a few weeks later at Hugh's Too, in a northern suburb club. I don't think Bob Stroger was with us yet.

Q. So you are calling yourself Mississippi Heat?
A. No, No. We were looking for a name. Robert and I were excited and talked on the phone a lot. We first came up with "Mississippi Knights." We played at Hugh's Too (near Chicago) under that name. We had another gig at Jimmy's Woodlawn Tap in Hyde Park under that name too. Shortly after the band was formed, with Bob Stroger now with us -- he and Robert worked also with Sunnyland Slim; and Bob with Jimmy Rogers -- my son Jonathan who was about 9 years old at that time came up with the name "Heat" in "Mississippi Heat". We felt it fitted perfectly, and we jumped on that name. That is one of the reasons I like our name because Jonathan came up with it. Robert was a Mississippian, and he also took pride with our "Mississippi" name. Moreover, as you know the harp being called the "Mississippi Saxophone" down South didn't hurt us either. And finally, we wanted to show reverence to Delta Blues for influencing us all. To this day fans and people in the media tell us how catchy and attractive the name is.

Q. So what did that band sound like then?
A. At the time, we played traditional post-war Blues of the early 1950's. Jimmy Rogers types of songs, Muddy Waters and Junior Wells tunes. ... Robert also sang songs from his Red Beans album Golden Voice, as well as covers like "Country Girl", which he particularly enjoyed singing. We recorded that tune during the taping of the Straight From The Heart CD, by we have never released it.
Early 1950's Chicago Blues was the main focus however. Jon McDonald had an incredible blues culture, and played a variety of Blues guitar styles, including pre-war acoustic Blues. With Stroger in the band, Bob also provided a traditional feel to it. Bob Stroger's first gig with us was in February 1992 at Jimmy's Woodlawn Tap.

Q. What is your role in the band? Is everyone contributing?
A. From the very beginning I was the bandleader, and I was respected as such by everybody. I always shared the spotlight with the band. Everyone who could contribute something was invited to share.

Q. So describe how you hooked up with Bob Stroger.
A. We had a gig February 15th, 1992 at Jimmy's Woodlawn Tap in Hyde Park. Robert Covington said it would be great to have him. So my brother Michel, as our manager, called him. He loved Bob just by talking with him on the phone. Bob accepted the gig. He was still with Jimmy Rogers and Sunnyland Slim at the time. So that was the first time. As with the other members of the band, we hit it off great. And we loved what we heard.

Q. So now you got your first official rhythm section.
A. Yes.

Q. Stroger, Covington and you and Jon McDonald?
A. That is correct.

Q. Four people?
A. Yes.

Q. So what was Covington doing at that time? Was he in demand?
A. Very much in demand. Covington was a regular artist at the Kingston Mines club. He was singing there a lot. With time, it turned out that Robert missed more and more Mississippi Heat gigs. We eventually hired drummer Bob Carter who besides Jon and Bob, also sang particularly well. He was an awesome Blues drummer, and I liked him. From four members we became five. By this time in Robert's career he didn't like to sing while playing drums. He loved being a front man. A role he did admirably well. Robert had a natural charm about him, and was quite charismatic as an entertainer. His singing was superb and soulful. He often left me spellbound. He had his audience in the palm of his hands. After his untimely death in 1996 (he was born December 13th, 1941), I wrote a Reggae-like Blues tune about him highlighting his talents as a musician and friend. I haven't recorded it as yet. The name of the tune is, of course, "Golden Voice"...

Q. So Covington was out front, stand up singer.
A. Absolutely. People loved him.

Q. So you were gigging under Mississippi Heat?
A. Yeah.

Q. How often were you working?
A. Well, Michel was able to get us lots of work at Jimmy's. It didn't pay much but we made good money because friends and family came in droves. It is a small cozy Pub. We received donations. These often came up to $70.00 a man. That is a lot considering how small the club is. Friends were willing to support these gigs. Everyone in the band was committed to make it happen.

Q. So these places that you are playing are they used to having blues?
A. Some did, some didn't. For instance, no other bands had ever played at Jimmy's before us. Michel made it happen. He found creative ways to keep us working.

Q. What is the scene like in 1992 compared to what it like today?
A. We did well at places like Rosa's on Sundays. We were regulars at Dixie Q also. We played at the University of Chicago, and had a few other regular places. Of course Jimmy's Woodlawn Tap was our first home base.

Q. Is Jon MacDonald black or white?
A. Black.

Q. Covington is black.
A. Yes.

Q. Stroger is black.
A. Yes.

Q. Carter?
A. White.

Q. So are there many other mixed bands out there working in 1992?
A. I'm not sure.

Q. What I basically see is either all white bands or all black bands. Generally, that is changing. More and more you are starting to see black guys fronting mostly white bands. Buddy does that, and Otis Rush at times does that. His band changes all the time. Sammy Myers fronting Anson Funderburgh's band. 1992 isn't a million years ago ...
A. Sonny Wimberly's band, The Blues Invaders, was all white except for him. But I can't really comment on the composition of Chicago's blues band now or in the early 1990's. I am not the kind of guy who goes out at night if I'm not gigging. I have a family. To this day I'm often told by the Blues community and fans alike that we were unique as far as our sound and looks because of our age differences, and the black and white mix. Bob Stroger and later, James Wheeler, formerly with Otis Rush, were the older veterans in the band.

Q. All right so the four of you formed this core of Mississippi Heat, five of you now. Bob (Covington) is out front.
A. Yes. I always called him Robert, though. He was our front man.

Q. So you work pretty steadily for how long? Roughly?
A. Robert was always a member of the band but he was busier and busier. So we had to start thinking of what to do to replace him when he was unavailable.

Q. Does he gig on his own or with other people ...
A. He did a few gigs on his own. However, Kingston Mines was his bread and butter. They payed him well. Occasionally he, Stroger, Steve Freund and sax player Sam Burkhardt would go to Europe under the name "The Big Four." They were Sunnyland's band without Sunnyland being present. Sunnyland was up in years by the time I got to meet that legendary piano player, and could not travel well. A gentle and likable man.

Q. Is Covington fronting his band at Kingston Mines?
A. There is a house band he hired, and who knew his material. He was a mainstay over there. He liked working with us though, and often freed himself from previous engagements to be with us. Even when it meant less money for him. There was something pleasing to him about Mississippi Heat. As we grew more and more in demand, it was clear we had to find a replacement for Robert. That came after we recorded our first CD, Straight From The Heart. Shortly before that, in the summer of 1992, we had received an invitation to go to South America: To Punto del Este, Uruguay. But before that recording we went through a few guitar players before settling with two: Billy Flynn and James Wheeler. A few months into the band, things didn't work out between Jon McDonald and us. So we decided to part. ... We are still good friends today. Jon is a faithful and committed friend. He comes through when I need his advice and support. I do the same for him. After Jon left, we then turned to Little Smokey whom I had met at the Checkerboards, and who was eager to join. We were excited to have him as a singer and guitar player. Covington was still part of the band, even if we sometimes played without him. But this situation didn't last but a few months. Conflicts arose in the band ...

Q. Well, Covington is a singer, Little Smokey is a singer. I could see where there might be a challenge who is really out front.
A. That was I believe the main reason why it didn't work out. As much as I appreciated Smokey's guitar style and stage presence, I felt that his contribution was not compatible with our democratic band philosophy. Little Smokey stayed with us a few months only. Billy Flynn's name was suggested to us through David Waldman. David is a well-known harp player in Chicago whom I had met at Jimmy's. So I called Billy and hired him for a gig. That was in August 1992. ...

Q. I was wondering in that first core of people when you were just starting out, were there are wild nights that particularly stand out?
A. At that time we had not traveled as a unit. Our relationship among ourselves was pleasant and positive. But in terms of wild stuff, these occurred a few years later ... like witnessing a hold-up, for example, or seeing overturned cars while returning from a gig in Canada ... stories like that. That came later on when we began traveling. ...

Q. So you hooked up with Billy.
A. After our first gig together, Billy said he was interested in working with us again. And thus began a long relationship which lasted until 1997. Billy was well versed in many Blues guitar styles. He rarely repeated songs from one gig to another. That was refreshing to me as I hate to repeat the same material if I can help it. Myself, too, I try to bring new tunes at gigs. I love that challenge. Billy also sang original songs he had written. I learned a lot from him. The thing about Billy Flynn though was that he lived in Green Bay, Wisconsin, four hours away from Chicago. So this became an issue, especially during the Winter months. Billy also suffered from a severe chronic medical condition: Arthritis since adolescence.

Q. So with Billy there were issues.
A. Absolutely. But we kept him. He still made most of the gigs anyways. Plus he is one of the most cultured Blues guitar players I have ever met. A walking encyclopedia of the Blues. He plays Albert Collins, BB King, Robert Jr. Lockwood , Earl Hooker, Muddy Waters, including their slide guitar styles, Jimmy Rogers and Louis Myers note for note. He was a welcomed musical addition to the band.

Q. So how did the other issues you talked about enter into it.
A. I wanted to be prepared in the event Billy couldn't make a gig. I wanted a second guitar player who knew our material and could step in whenever I needed him to. Covington was my confidante. He agreed with my idea and told me about James Wheeler. James played for Robert at the Kingston Mines, and still was with Otis Rush at the time. He looked up to Robert. So I went to see him, and liked what I heard. James' first gig with us was in September 1992 at the Blue Note in Rockford, IL. Our friendship began to grow. He was an awesome guitar player. Wheeler was a quiet introverted man, more so than most people I knew, and a deep person. The band was looking forward to travel internationally... Europe, Canada ... so we could make more money. We shaped the band towards that goal. This is about the time we received the offer from Uruguay. A friend of Vickie and I, a physician here in Chicago, introduced us to his brother visiting him from Uruguay. He was a big business man over there, connected to the holiday resort Punto Del Este. So after meeting us and hearing the band, he said "I am taking you to play in my country". So Michel's creative wheels began turning. He thought that if we are to play at that fancy Resort, we have to show up with a legitimate CD.

My brother is uncanny as a PR man. He is the backbone to our fame and notoriety. He always comes up with great ideas for the band. More often than not, these turn up into gold. He is the perfect manager. ... The five of us, Robert, Bob, James, Billy and myself were excited with doing a CD for the Uruguayan trip.

Q. So you made the CD to sell down there?
A. To sell down there, and to put us on the Blues map. But we recorded it specifically to get a job in Uruguay. We knew the recording would also be useful in getting local, national and international gigs. Which in fact that CD, Straight From The Heart, did do for us.

The irony is that we never went to Uruguay !!! The closest we have ever been to Uruguay as a band was in 1998 when we played at an international music festival in Caracas, Venezuela. Be it as it may, Straight From The Heart was very good to us. It opened many doors.

Q. What was the experience making the CD?
A. Exciting. We had many songs. I had been playing my tunes live already with the band, so recording them went smoothly. I urged everyone to bring original material. Billy brought in four of his songs. I brought in seven. I wrote a song for Sonny Wimberly who had died in August 1992 . On a side note, that song, "Heartbroken", was also a song Junior Wells wanted to buy from us. He had heard it in Michel's car between sets at Shades [1992] and loved it. Junior sang along with such passion, Michel and I were taken aback. … I re-recorded that song with Inetta Visor on vocals on our Footprints On The Ceiling CD (2002). But to return to our first recording, Straight From The Heart, besides Billy's and my tunes, James Wheeler also sang "Bad Luck" and "Mother in Law Blues". Robert was our featured lead singer/drummer. As I said we began to work consistently but had to replace Robert, too tied up at Kingston Mines. Bob Stroger then suggested we reach out to Deitra Farr, a singer he knew well. So I went to see her at Blue Chicago. Jon McDonald was playing with her at the time, and was leading her band.

Q. Do you know how Bob knew her?
A. They were good friends. In past years, she had hired Bob to play in her band. ... I eventually called Deitra, and she accepted to give Mississippi Heat a shot. We played at a place called Otto's in DeKalb, IL. That was January 15th, 1993. That evening I had Sam Lay on drums, and Calvin Jones on bass. Stroger I believe had a gig with Jimmy Rogers. At that time Sam and Calvin often played with us.

Q. We will get back to that. Covington is going to cost you more than a singer. Were you playing with Deitra and Bob Carter?
A. Yes, I had Bob Carter on drums for a long while before I leaned towards Sam Lay. Bob Carter was becoming unreliable. So I let him go.

Q. Sammy Lay is great, quite a history.
A. He took Bob Carter's place.

Q. Deitra didn't come until 1993?
A. That's right.

Q. You said that you got Wheeler in as your back up.
A. That is correct.

Q. I know that in time George Baze became a full-time member of your band, but at that time, was he like your back up for Billy Flynn?
A. Yes, that is exactly the way it went. We went with George to Canada and Europe when Billy couldn't make it due to illness. I would take George and James Wheeler. I loved traveling with George. He was the nicest man you'd ever meet. A true friend, and a team player.

Q. I saw you guys in town once, that barbecue place.
A. You mean Brother Jimmy's?

Q. Brother Jimmy's. I saw you guys there, and George was there that night.
A. Yeah. George was always with us when Billy could not make it. …

Q. OK we will return to george Baze in a while. But for now, was there an incident causing Covington to leave the band?
A. There never were problems between Covington and us. Years after Deitra joined, my drummer Allen Kirk couldn't make a trip with the band. I hired Covington as his temporary replacement for a Canadian road trip (1996). It turned out to be a most pleasant trip. Robert died a few